It is widely known that the ancient Greeks and Romans worshipped many powerful goddesses, whom they held in extremely high regard. At the same time, it is also widely known that ancient Greek and Roman societies were deeply patriarchal. Misogyny and machismo were rampant among men of all social classes. Women’s lives were, in general, strictly socially controlled and women were excluded from holding most official positions of power.
As a result of this, one of the most common questions people have asked me about classical mythology is how the Greeks and Romans were able to accommodate such powerful goddesses within their respective pantheons while simultaneously denigrating human women. In this essay, I will try to answer this question to the best of my ability. I will give several different plausible explanations in the hope that some of them, or the combination of all of them, may be satisfactory.
The importance of goddesses in ancient Greek religion
The ancient Greeks worshipped many powerful goddesses such as Athena, Aphrodite, Hera, and Artemis. These goddesses were extremely important in ancient Greek religion. Athena was the patron goddess of Athens, which was, for most of the fifth century BCE, the most powerful and influential polis (i.e., city-state) in the Greek world. The Athenians built multiple important temples to Athena on their Akropolis, including the Parthenon (constructed 447 – 432 BCE), the Temple of Athena Nike (constructed 449 – 420 BCE), and the Erechtheion (constructed 421 – 406 BCE, originally dedicated to both Athena and Poseidon).
The most important religious festival in Athens was the Panathenaia, which was held primarily in honor of Athena. The Lesser Panathenaia was held every year and the Great Panathenaia, which lasted three or four days longer than the Lesser Panthenaia, was held every four years. One of the other most important festivals in classical Athens was the Arrhephoria, which was also held primarily in honor of Athena.
The Athenians also had a temple to dedicated to Aphrodite under her epithet Πάνδημος (Pándēmos), meaning “For All People,” on the southwestern side of the Akropolis. One of the other most important festivals in classical Athens was the Aphrodisia, which was primarily in honor of Aphrodite. The Athenians also honored Aphrodite during the Arrhephoria and several other religious festivals.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of the Parthenon, a colossal temple dedicated to the Greek goddess Athena on the Athenian Akropolis
Athens’ main rival for most of classical Greek history was, of course, the polis of Sparta. Here I’d like to briefly debunk a misconception that I’ve often encountered. For some reason, many people I have talked to believe that Ares was the patron god of Sparta, but this is not really accurate. I think people have only gotten this impression because they associate Ares with war and Sparta with war, so they end up associating Ares with Sparta. It is true that the Spartans seem to have perhaps devoted more attention to Ares than Greeks from other poleis, but he was certainly not their primary patron god in the same way that Athena was the patron goddess of Athens.
Some people may be surprised to learn that the goddesses Athena and Artemis seem to have been far more important in Spartan religion than Ares. The Spartans had a major temple on their Akropolis dedicated to Athena under her epithets Πολιοῦχος (Polioûchos), which means “Protectress of the Polis,” and Χαλκίοικος (Chalkíoikos), which means “Of the Brazen House.” They also had a major sanctuary dedicated to Artemis under her epithet Ὀρθία (Orthía) and they held an annual festival in honor of her.
The Spartans also seem to have held Aphrodite in particularly high regard, since the ancient travel writer Pausanias (lived c. 110 – c. 180 CE) records in his book The Guide to Greece 3.17.5 that the Spartans had a temple on their Akropolis dedicated to Aphrodite as a warrior goddess under her epithet Ἀρεία (Areía), meaning “Warlike.”
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of an ivory votive offering dating to the Greek Archaic Period, currently on display in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, depicting Artemis Orthia
The importance of goddesses in ancient Greek myth
In addition to being very important in ancient Greek religion, goddesses are also extremely important in ancient Greek mythology and literature. For instance, Hera plays an important role in many myths because she is said to have ruthlessly persecuted many of the famous Greek heroes. In sharp contrast, Athena is said to have aided many of these same heroes.
The Trojan War is said to have begun with a dispute between Athena, Hera, and Aphrodite over which of them was the most beautiful. The Iliad is an ancient Greek epic poem in dactylic hexameter that tells a story that is set during the Trojan War. This poem was most likely composed in around the early seventh century BCE or thereabouts and it is considered one of the most important and influential early works of Greek literature. It portrays these three goddesses as being especially closely involved in the action of the war, constantly intervening to assist their favorite heroes.
Hera and Aphrodite are less prominent in the Odyssey, which is another ancient Greek epic poem composed shortly after the Iliad in the same meter about the return of the hero Odysseus to his home island of Ithaka. Athena, on the other hand, plays, if anything, an even more prominent role in the Odyssey as she assists Odysseus behind the scenes during his travels and takes a more overt role in aiding him after he arrives on Ithaka.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a mosaic from the House of Apollo in the Roman city of Pompeii dating to the first century CE, depicting a scene from the Iliad, Book One, in which Athena stops the warrior Achilleus from killing Agamemnon
Athena is also an important recurring figure throughout many surviving works of classical Athenian drama from the fifth century BCE, including Aischylos’s tragedy The Eumenides (originally performed in 458 BCE) and Euripides’s tragedy The Trojan Women (originally performed in 415 BCE). Additionally, a bitter rivalry between Aphrodite and Artemis is a central plot point in Euripides’s tragedy Hippolytos (originally performed in 428 BCE). Both goddesses appear on stage in the play, with Aphrodite giving a monologue at the very beginning and Artemis appearing near the end.
The sheer importance of goddesses in Greek mythology actually sets Greek mythology apart from some other pre-modern European mythologies. Notably, goddesses are both much more numerous and much more important in Greek mythology than they are in Norse mythology. The only goddesses who are particularly important in Norse mythology are Frigg and Freyja, both of whom seem to mostly appear in myths that are primarily about male deities and don’t have very many solo myths.
ABOVE: Freyja Seeking Her Husband, painted in 1852 by the Swedish painter Nils Blommér
The paradox of ancient Greek misogyny
At the same time, however, the surviving ancient Greek and Roman written sources are absolutely redolent with misogyny of the most virulent kind. For instance, the poet Hesiodos of Askre most likely lived in around the late eighth century BCE or early seventh century BCE. He is considered one of the earliest and most influential poets in the entire Greek literary tradition. He was also an absolutely raving misogynist. After referencing the myth of Pandora, the first woman, he writes in his poem Theogonia, lines 590–612, as translated in prose by Hugh G. Evelyn-White:
“For from her is the race of women and female kind: of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who live amongst mortal men to their great trouble, no helpmeets in hateful poverty, but only in wealth. And as in thatched hives bees feed the drones whose nature is to do mischief—by day and throughout the day until the sun goes down the bees are busy and lay the white combs, while the drones stay at home in the covered skeps and reap the toil of others into their own bellies—even so Zeus who thunders on high made women to be an evil to mortal men, with a nature to do evil.”
“And he gave them a second evil to be the price for the good they had: whoever avoids marriage and the sorrows that women cause, and will not wed, reaches deadly old age without anyone to tend his years, and though he at least has no lack of livelihood while he lives, yet, when he is dead, his kinsfolk divide his possessions amongst them. And as for the man who chooses the lot of marriage and takes a good wife suited to his mind, evil continually contends with good; for whoever happens to have mischievous children, lives always with unceasing grief in his spirit and heart within him; and this evil cannot be healed.”
Hesiodos is maybe a bit of an extreme example, but this kind of rabid misogyny is far from rare in surviving works of ancient Greek literature.
Even elite Greek male authors who had relatively progressive views on women by the standards of the time were still very sexist. For instance, as I discuss in this article I wrote in September 2020, the Athenian philosopher Plato (lived c. 429 – c. 347 BCE) portrays Socrates as arguing in The Republic 5.455d-5.457c that ἀρετή (aretḗ), which means “excellence” or “virtue,” is the same for both men and women. He argues that men and women of the citizen class have fundamentally the same role in the guardianship of the state and should therefore receive the same education.
Nevertheless, despite these views, Plato consistently characterizes women in general as weak and cowardly and, in his Timaios 90e-91a, he declares that men who have lived cowardly lives will be reincarnated as women.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a Roman marble portrait head of Plato, based on an earlier Greek original
Another prime example of ancient Greek misogyny is Plato’s student, the famous philosopher Aristotle of Stageira (lived 384 – 322 BCE). Nowadays, Aristotle is often wrongly maligned for having supposedly been an incompetent buffoon who was wrong about “everything” and single-handedly held back the progress of science for thousands of years. I wrote an article in October 2020 in which I thoroughly debunk this claim. Aristotle was, in fact, highly advanced in his methods for the time and most of the things he is blamed for having gotten wrong in areas of science are things that no one at the time could have reasonably been expected to have gotten right.
There is, however, no way to defend Aristotle against the charge of misogyny. He held and promoted horribly sexist views against women that were arguably regressive even by the standards of men of the time and culture in which he lived. For instance, Aristotle famously writes in his On the Generation of Animals 2.3.737a25: “The female is indeed, as it were, a deformed male.” He regarded women as inherently irrational, morally and intellectually deficient, and akin to children. He therefore believed that all women must have a free adult man to rule over them at all times. He writes in his Politics 1.1260a, as translated by H. Rackham:
“Hence it is manifest that all the persons mentioned have a moral virtue of their own, and that the temperance of a woman and that of a man are not the same, nor their courage and justice, as Socrates thought, but the one is the courage of command, and the other that of subordination, and the case is similar with the other virtues.”
History buffs on the internet often like to claim that the Spartans were less misogynistic than the Athenians and that life was much better for women in Sparta than for women in Athens, but, as I discuss in this article I wrote in June 2021, this is not really the case.
Women in Sparta who belonged to the citizen class had somewhat less restricted lives than women in Athens who belonged to the citizen class, but their lives were still very restricted even by the standards of the wider ancient world and misogynistic attitudes still flourished. (This isn’t even mentioning the fact that the overwhelming majority of all women in Sparta were enslaved helots who were brutally exploited and abused.)
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a Roman marble bust of Aristotle, based on an earlier Greek original
Goddesses are not women
The first reason why the deeply patriarchal Greeks might have been willing to tolerate the existence of powerful goddesses in their religion and mythology is because, quite simply, they believed that goddesses are not women and women are not goddesses. The ancient Greek and Roman goddesses are anthropomorphic, which means that they resemble human women, and this makes it easy for modern people to conflate them with women. The ancient Greeks and Romans, however, firmly believed that humans and deities are fundamentally different beings.
I think that this simple distinction is really key to understanding how the phenomenon of the Greeks simultaneously exalting powerful goddesses while denigrating human women, which seems like a paradox to us, might not have seemed like much of a paradox at all to the ancient Greeks. This distinction alone, however, isn’t everything, because it doesn’t fully account for the similarities between Greek goddesses and human women that easily give rise to comparisons.
Goddesses from an earlier time
One element that may take us a bit further toward understanding our current paradox is the fact that most of the goddesses in the Greek and Roman pantheons originated during a period much earlier than the ones that most of our written sources come from.
The earliest surviving texts written in the Greek language are economic records written in the Linear B script by scribes during the Mycenaean Period (lasted c. 1750 – c. 1050 BCE). These records don’t give us very much information, but they do include mention of some of the most important Mycenaean deities’ names. These include the names of most of the major Greek goddesses who were worshipped during the later Classical Period, including Athena, Hera, and Artemis.
Aphrodite is the only noteworthy exception here, since her name is not mentioned in any surviving Linear B text. Modern scholars believe that she was a relatively late entry to the Greek pantheon from the Near East. The Phoenicians most likely introduced her to the Greek world under the name Ashtart sometime after the end of the Mycenaean Period and the Greeks eventually made her their own. Despite her late entry, however, Aphrodite had certainly entered the Greek pantheon by the eighth century BCE or earlier, since she appears in the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the poems of Hesiodos.
Nearly all the surviving written sources that provide us with information about Greek society were written after the eighth century BCE. Consequently, the available information about what Greek society was like before the eighth century BCE is extremely limited. As you go further back in time before the eighth century BCE, our information about Greek society grows increasingly vague and fragmentary.
Thus, although all the historical and archaeological evidence that is currently available to us suggests that the Greek world was always patriarchal, it is easy to imagine that Greek society in the second millennium BCE, when the names of most of the Greek goddesses are first attested in writing, might have been somewhat less systemically misogynistic than Greek society in the eighth century BCE and after. This is, of course, speculative, but it is a possibility that we should not ignore.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a fresco fragment of a woman from the site of Knossos on the island of Krete, dating to around 1350 BCE when the complex was controlled by the Mycenaean Greeks
A biased selection of written sources
Another factor that we need to remember is that the vast majority of all written sources that have survived from ancient Greece and Rome were written by men who were at least moderately socially and financially well-off. This is partly a result of the nature of ancient society. In the ancient world, men of elite status were the most likely to be literate and the most likely to have spare time to write works of literature and it was also more socially acceptable for men to write literature than women.
The overwhelming dominance of male authors in our surviving sources, however, is also partly a result of the selection bias of which sources have survived. In order for a work to survive from antiquity to the present day, it needed to be widely read and copied.
Most of the works that we know were written by women in antiquity have not survived to the present day because, unfortunately, ancient and medieval readers were not generally interested in reading works written by women. Thus, for instance, nothing or almost nothing has survived of the work of the female Greek historian Pamphile of Epidauros, who, as I discuss in this in-depth article I wrote about her, was an extraordinarily prolific author in around the mid-first century CE.
Men of elite social and economic status are overrepresented in our sources, but they only made up an extremely small, privileged segment of the ancient Greek and Roman populations. As a result of this, the surviving written sources are heavily skewed to reflect the opinions and attitudes of the most privileged possible men, rather than the attitudes of society at large.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of an Attic red-figure bell-krater painted by the Nikias Painter dating to c. 420 BCE, depicting a symposion or drinking party, which was a popular activity for aristocratic Greek men
We must, of course, remember that, in societies where misogyny is common among elite men, it usually permeates all other levels of society as well. That being said, women and girls made up half the population of all ancient Greek and Roman societies and the vast majority of men are not represented in our sources. As a result of this, it is easy to imagine that the people who belonged to groups that are not represented in our written sources may have been less misogynistic than the people whose opinions are attested in our written sources.
I personally suspect that, at the very least, the majority of ancient Greek women probably did not agree with Aristotle’s opinion that women are nothing more than stunted, malformed men with the intellectual capacities of children. Internalized misogyny is, of course, very real and many women surely did believe this about themselves, but I rather doubt that it was the majority opinion.
Ancient Greek religion and, to a lesser extent, mythology, however, are reflective of a larger share of the Greek population than the surviving written sources, because everyone in ancient Greece participated in religion and told stories about the deities, including women. Indeed, religion was easily the most democratic area of Greek society, since it was the only area of ancient Greek public life in which all women were expected and encouraged to actively participate. It’s very telling the only official public role that Greek women could hold was the role of a priestess.
The stories of Greek mythology have been passed down to us almost entirely through versions retold by men, but we can probably assume that at least some of these stories surely originated with women in some form, since men did not have a monopoly on storytelling.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of scene on an Attic black-figure amphora found at Vulci in Etruria, dating to between c. 550 and c. 540 BCE, depicting a priestess leading the sacrifice of a bull to the goddess Athena
Patriarchal goddesses in a patriarchal pantheon
Finally, although ancient Greek religion and mythology include powerful goddesses, these goddesses operate within a patriarchal framework and, for the most part, work to support the patriarchy. This is especially the case with Athena, who, throughout all her various myths, continually works to defend the rule of her father Zeus and to support male heroes.
Perhaps the clearest statement of this in all of Greek literature occurs in Aischylos’s tragedy The Eumenides. In the play, the hero Orestes is put on trial in Athens for having murdered his own mother Klytaimnestra in retribution for her having murdered his father Agamemnon. The god Apollon speaks before the jury in Orestes’s defense, declaring that Orestes is not guilty of killing a blood relative because the mother is not a true parent, but rather merely a vessel that nurtures the father’s seed, allowing it to grow into a child. Apollon declares that since Klytaimnestra murdered Orestes’s father, his only true parent, he did not commit a crime in killing her.
Half the jurors vote to acquit Orestes and the other half vote to convict, leading Athena to cast her own vote as a tiebreaker. Athena declares that she intends to vote to acquit, explaining in lines 734–740 of Sarah Ruden’s translation:
“The final judgment lies in my hands now:
I mean to give it in Orestes’s favor.
There is no mother who gave birth to me.
With all my heart, I hold with what is male—
except through marriage. I am all my father’s,
no partisan of any woman killed
for murdering her husband, her home’s watchman.”
Thus, Athena pretty much openly says that she will always support a man over a woman.
ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of a Paestan red-figure bell-krater dating to c. 330 BCE, depicting the hero Orestes at Delphoi, flanked by the goddess Athena on his right and the god Apollon on his left
Athena’s abiding support for the patriarchy grows, if anything, even more pronounced in later myths. The ancient Romans identified Athena with their goddess Minerva. In around the year 8 CE, the Roman poet Publius Ovidius Naso (lived 43 BCE – c. 17 CE), who is best known today in English as “Ovid,” wrote a long narrative poem in dactylic hexameter in the Latin language titled Metamorphoses. This poem, which is now Ovid’s most famous work, contains the earliest complete tellings of two very famous myths about Minerva that are not attested in the earlier classical Greek sources.
In the Metamorphoses 4.794–804, Ovid portrays the hero Perseus as telling the story of how Medusa became a monster. In the story, Medusa is a priestess of Minerva, but the god Neptune (whom the Romans identified with the Greek god Poseidon) rapes her in Minerva’s own temple. Minerva therefore punishes Medusa for having been raped by turning her into a monster with snakes for hair and making her so hideous that anyone who catches sight of her will immediately turn to stone.
This is a clear example of victim-blaming. In the story, Minerva cannot punish Neptune for raping Medusa because he is a male god and therefore almost by definition exempt from any and all forms of being held responsible for his own actions, so, instead, she punishes Medusa herself.
ABOVE: Roman mosaic from the Tepidarium of the Dar Zmela House, dating to the second half of the second century CE, showing Medusa’s face
Later, in his Metamorphoses 6.1–145, Ovid tells the story of a mortal woman named Arachne, who lives in Lydia in Asia Minor and boasts that she is even better at weaving than the goddess Minerva herself. Minerva comes to Arachne in the form of an old woman and warns her not to put herself above the deities.
Arachne rebuffs Minerva’s warnings and declares that she wants to challenge Minerva to a weaving contest. Minerva, shedding her disguise, accepts Arachne’s challenge. Minerva weaves a tapestry showing the contest between her and Neptune in which she won patronage over Athens, the twelve Olympian deities in their majesty, and the gruesome fates of mortals who dared to challenge the deities.
Arachne, by contrast, weaves a tapestry showing twenty-one scenes of various male deities engaging in acts of heinous sexual misconduct, including Minerva’s own father Iupiter (whom the Romans identified with Zeus) raping Leda in the form of a swan, raping Asteria in the form of an eagle, raping Europa in the form of a bull, raping Antiope in the form of a satyr, and raping Danaë in the form of a shower of gold.
Minerva is forced to acknowledge that Arachne is by far the superior weaver, but she is outraged by the fact that Arachne has dared to condemn the male deities for their sexual crimes, so she destroys Arachne’s tapestry and strikes Arachne four times across the face with her shuttle. Arachne, humiliated, hangs herself. Minerva brings her back to life, but curses her to “hang forever” from a web and transforms her into the first spider.
These stories in which Athena/Minerva is shown defending the patriarchy in this aggressive manner actually serve to reinforce ancient patriarchal norms and the fact that she is female herself only makes her defense of the patriarchy seem even more compelling.
ABOVE: Minerva and Arachne, painted in 1706 by the French Neoclassical painter René-Antoine Houasse
Conclusion
At the end of the day, the fact that the ancient Greeks worshipped such powerful goddesses while denigrating actual human women will probably remain a paradox for most people. I do, however, hope that what I have written here will help some people make some degree of sense of it.
Very well written! But I’d something on the series of myths on Demeter and Kore. I suppose that their cult in Eleusis was by far the most egalitarian one in the classical Greek world. The eleusinian cycle is not very clear to us which in my opinion would point towards its popularity among common people.
Very interesting. I wonder if you know about the idea that ancient Crete was a matriarchy? There is an article here about it.https://news.ku.edu/2017/06/09/art-religious-artifacts-support-idea-minoan-matriarchy-ancient-crete-researcher-says I’m a bit skeptical because of the past failure regarding such claims. This is something that you might want to research though assuming that you’ve never heard about it. Perhaps this was an exception. In any case it might be fodder for a future article of yours.
I actually already started writing an article about whether the Minoans were a matriarchal society several months ago and I’ve been working on it on-and-off ever since then, so I’m already way ahead of you. Unfortunately, I don’t know how soon it will be finished, since I’ve kind of put it on the back burner several times in order to work on other things.
The claim that the Minoans were a matriarchy goes all the way back to Sir Arthur Evans, the archaeologist who first excavated the site of Knossos. I think that the case for a true matriarchy is pretty flimsy, but I’m certainly willing to believe that their society may have been relatively more egalitarian than later Greek society.
Okay, cool. I look forward to it. Being more egalitarian does seem more reasonable to me as well.
I’m very eager to read your Cretan article. There’s a lot of overreaching when it comes to defining ancient societies as wish-fulfillment visions of modern desires. When I first got interested in these theories (“The Chalice and the Blade”, “The Women’s Book of Myths and Secrets”) I was dismayed by the historical mistakes and unjustified speculations, even as I was attracted to some of the rosy portrayals of ancient society.
I am looking forward to your article about the Minoan society. I am curious as to why/how/when the patriarchal form of society overtook the matriarchal.
I have come to respect your views and your expertise.
The article is not convincing. Especially in light of the fact that the most well known ruler of the Minoans was King Minos. If there were powerful women ruling Minoan Crete, what were their names?
Beautiful Minoan frescos of beautiful Minoan girls is just that! Beautiful. Should we characterize our culture as Matriarchal by all the beautiful Playboy centerfolds?
But I have read somewhere that many of the Aegean Islands are matriarchal, even today. Now that is well worth researching!
Constantinos, I believe King Minos was only the ruler of Crete in myth. I don’t think there is any evidence of the names of the actual rulers of historical ancient Crete.
However, your point comparing the Cretan frescoes to modern magazines that feature mainly female images is well-taken.
King Minos is Mythical. Meaning he existed during a time when there were no written history.
Like so many other Greek heroes. Like Jason and Achiles and Hercules.
Does it make him mythological? A figment of Greek imagination? I don’t think so!
There is currently no evidence to suggest that there was ever a historical king of Krete named Minos. Likewise, there is currently no evidence to suggest that the mythical heroes Iason, Achilleus, or Herakles ever existed. Any argument for the existence of these figures from Greek mythology is based solely on wishful thinking.
The point, Spencer, is if Crete was a Matriarchal Culture, such “Mythic persons” would have been powerful women not men.
Don’t expect modern courtroom “rules of evidence” to apply to ancient times. We have to use some larger common sense. With comes from greater experience of life and other people and other cultures, past and present.
I do not in any way expect modern courtroom rules of evidence to apply to ancient history. I do, however, expect historical rules of evidence to apply to ancient history, which are different from courtroom rules of evidence. Historical rules of evidence dictate that, when you claim that something happened in the ancient past, you must provide evidence to support it that at least plausibly might go back to the time when the event you are discussing happened or shortly thereafter. The Greeks after the eighth century BCE told stories about a mythical king of Krete named Minos, but that is not any kind of solid evidence to suggest that there really was a king of Krete named Minos who lived nearly a thousand years earlier.
Your argument that the Minoan civilization couldn’t have been a matriarchy because some Greek people a thousand years later told stories about Krete having at one point had a king really doesn’t hold any water either, for several reasons. The first reason is because, as I’ve mentioned above, it’s unclear to what extent later Greek stories about King Minos reflect any kind of reality about the Minoan civilization. These much later myths should not be taken as any kind of reliable evidence of what the historical Minoan civilization was really like. Our assessments of the Minoan civilization should be based primarily on the archaeological evidence from the civilization itself.
The second reason why your argument doesn’t really work is because there are, in fact, prominent and powerful women associated with Krete in Greek mythology. Minos himself is said to have been the son of Europa, a Phoenician princess whom Zeus abducted in the form of a bull and carried off to the island of Krete. Minos’s wife Pasiphaë is prominent in the Greek sources. His daughter, the princess Ariadne, is, if anything, even more prominent. In fact, the earliest attestation of the name Minos occurs in the Odyssey 11.321-322, where he is mentioned in passing as the father of Ariadne. (He’s also mentioned again a bit later in the same book of the Odyssey.)
I agree, it seems at best to show that some women in ancient Crete had a higher status. However, it cites far more than just frescos of beautiful Cretan women. The way you’ve framed it is very misleading.
Spencer,
” I do, however, expect historical rules of evidence to apply to ancient history”
And then you site Mythology as evidence.
Do you accept Mythology as evidence? You accept stories about women in Mythology as evidence, but not stories about Minos as evidence.
Your argument and reasoning is fool of holes and contradictions.
Knowledge is not Wisdom! Knowledge anybody can have by burying their lives in books. But Wisdom can only be acquired through experience. Thats why it is associated with old age.
I do not accept or cite mythology as reliable historical evidence. You’re misunderstanding what I’ve said. The first point I make in my comment above is that mythology is not reliable evidence of what Minoan culture was like. The second point I make is that, even if we were to use mythology as evidence of what Minoan culture was like, your argument still wouldn’t really hold, because there are other plausible interpretations of the myths that you yourself rely on as your only evidence.
I think it’s important to note here that we actually agree in our conclusion that Minoan society was most likely not matriarchal, but your argument for this conclusion is not historically sound and there are much better arguments for this conclusion that are based on archaeological evidence, rather than myths from a thousand years later.
A little amateur.
Goddesses are not women!
The proposition that ancient Crete – I presume you mean, Minoan Crete – was a matriarchy lacks evidence – pure speculation.
thanks for clarifying a doubt i had.
You’re welcome! I’m glad you found my article helpful!
Societies rise and fall according to the conditions they face. We cannot judge an ancient culture by modern standards.
Nor by what some Greek poets write about women. Which is not too different than what some people now think about women.
Which comes from their own personal experience with some women. Which is universal. But not indicative of the entire culture.
Before you can comment on this topic, best you acquire some experience with this facet of life.
How is he doing that? Spencer is saying they had prevalent sexism in ancient Greece. I don’t think that can be argued with. He specifically says it doesn’t mean everyone in ancient Greece had these views too. What experience do you mean? I wonder whether you’ve even read this article…
“Sexism” is a modern concept. Should not be used to describe ancient people facing very different life conditions.
And no! “Ancient Greece was not misogynist”!
What Spencer uses to make his argument can be found in any culture any time. It reflects the personal experience of some men with some women. And the reverse is equally true. It is universal.
I disagree, it’s a word which can describe a certain attitude or view. Misogyny as well (which they also had-same deal). Spencer never said they were the only culture with sexism. To say every single culture has though is dubious, at least to this. Saying it’s solely based on personal experience also seems dubious.
“Sexism” places greater value for one sex over the other. Purely based on the biological sex of that person and nothing else.
It does not apply to times and places when that value given to a person was determined by the survival needs of a people.
When the roles were better defined, because the needs and abilities were more determined by the circumstances of their existance.
What we don’t have or need to have in todays world. That’s why “sexism” is a modern notion that does not apply to ancient people.
While “misogyny” is totally out of bounds to use to describe Ancient Greece. As it actually means “hatred of women”!
Spencer should know better! It troubles me that he does and still uses the term. If I was a psychoanalist, I would think he was “projecting” here a little.
I’m curious as to what are your credentials, because, to me, it just sounds like you are expressing some rather patriarchal opinions!
My credentials? I have two grown daughters and two young grand daughters, who I love and want to see happy and successful in life! And I would defend against any “sexism” and “misogyny” from others.
So this is not an “academic exercise” for me. It has real-life consequences. To call a culture “misogynist” is a condemnation we must not take lightly. No culture can thrive and succeed if it was “misogynist”. Any mischaracterizations of “misogyny” are just as damaging.
We need to be clear and all encompassing in our vuews and thinking here. Otherwise we risk making greater mistakes in our lives!
The fact that you have daughters and granddaughters does not mean you have the knowledge of ancient Greek history, culture, and society that is necessary in order to assess whether misogyny was an ingrained part of ancient Greek society, nor does it mean that your judgments about ancient Greek society are likely to be correct. If this conversation were about raising daughters, then having two grown daughters might be one form of qualification, but that’s not what this conversation is about.
Constantinos, my friend’s grandfather has 7 daughters and 18 granddaughters. He’s 95 years old. He agrees with Spencer that the ancient world is sexist. I would ask that you please bow to my friend’s grandfather’s superior knowledge about sexism in the ancient world. After all, he’s older than you and has more daughters.
Your naive intuitions-excuse me, ‘wisdom’-are neat. Try responding to Spencer with relevant arguments and evidence instead.
It is not, in fact, judging ancient Greek society by anachronistic “standards” to say that it was intensely patriarchal and that misogyny was rampant. Ancient Greek society was remarkably patriarchal even when compared to other ancient civilizations, such as Sumer and Egypt.
Meanwhile, even ancient Greek people themselves were well aware of the concept of misogyny. In fact, the exact word μισογυνία (misogynía) itself is literally an ancient Greek word that is used in multiple surviving ancient Greek sources. For instance, the Hellenistic Stoic philosopher Antipatros of Tarsos wrote a treatise titled On Marriage in around the middle of the second century BCE in which he defends the playwright Euripides against the accusation of misogyny. I don’t know how I could be any less anachronistic, honestly; I’m literally using an ancient Greek word that ancient Greek people used in reference to other ancient Greeks.
As for your claim that what ancient Greek writers say about women is “not too different than what some people now think about women,” that’s not really a defense of the ancient Greeks and more an indictment of modern people who still think misogynistically. Your claim that what ancient Greek authors say about women is a result of “their personal experience with some women” and that their opinions aren’t “indicative of the entire culture” is frankly very naïve. Misogyny is so thoroughly ubiquitous throughout ancient Greek written works that no one can plausibly deny that misogyny was a systemic problem of ancient Greek society and that ancient Greek social and cultural norms encouraged it.
Now, you say that I shouldn’t say anything about ancient Greek misogyny until I “acquire some experience with this facet of life.” What do you mean by “experience with this facet of life”? Do you mean “experience” with being a misogynist? I’m sorry, but, if that’s what you mean, I’m going to have to strongly disagree with you. Hating women is not an innate part of life and a person does not need to have personal experience with hating women in order to say that hating women is wrong.
Your youth and limited life experience disqualifies you from making such lofty pronouncements about people on whose shoulders we stand.
Lets just say, you just have much to learn! And reading more books will not get you there!
It is true that I am young, but that does not in any way disqualify me from knowing things about ancient history. I’ve been writing articles about ancient history on this blog and elsewhere online for nearly five years now, I’m less than a year away from graduating with a BA in history and classics (with honors in history), and I’m going to be applying to graduate programs in ancient history later this year. I obviously don’t have a PhD or a professorship, but I would say that I’m at least decently qualified to write about this stuff. The mere fact that you are older than me does not automatically make you more qualified than me to say things about ancient history.
As for your claim that “reading more books” won’t make me more qualified to say things about ancient history and your implied claim that only lived experience in the modern world will make me more qualified in this area, I think that is a very silly thing indeed. Lived experience can teach many things, but it can’t make someone an expert on things that happened two thousand years ago or more. The only way to become an expert on ancient history is to study ancient history, which, of course, involves an awful lot of reading books.
Its Experience that gives meaning to the words you read!
Knowledge is not Wisdom. You may have Knowledge but you lack Wisdom to make such damning pronouncements that Ancient Greek society was “misogynist”.
If you had Wisdom you would realize that no society can thrive and exist for long being “misogynist”.
You don’t even see how damaging such accusation is. That you don’t is evidence that you can’t. Because you lack Wisdom that comes from Experience.
My reference to my daughters and grand daughters were addressing the comment I am “patriarchal”.
In earlier comments I explained why “sexism” is a modern notion that does not apply to ancient cultures. Reread! It may give you new insight into this important issue facing us today. And ask if you still do not understand.
you sound like a jerk go somewhere else this person is educated on whats he talking about
Your reaction to my comments provides even more reason why I need to make them!
Why doesn’t it apply, even if that’s the reason for it (hardly a given)? It is a notion which definitely applies to anyone society with such a view. Misogyny certainly isn’t out of bounds-are you saying no one had hatred of women then? Please. As for Spencer, there’s no basis to think he’s projecting-I have seen nothing to suggest he is sexist or misogynistic.
Spencer is projecting his own views, based on his limited personal experience, on ancient people with very different views and lives.
I appreciate Spencer’s scholarship. But scholarship is not the same as truth.
I don’t see how he did that.
“Sexism” is placing a greater value on one sex vs the other for no other reason than what that sex is.
That “for no other reason” is only true in the modern world.
Michael,
Because your comments are sincere I feel I need to respond to them more completely.
First, on “sexism”. I don’t believe this idea applies to ancient cultures. Because the “value” placed on the biological sex of a person then was mostly determined by the ‘survival needs’ of the people. It wasn’t based exclusively on the biological sex of a person.
That is no longer true in the modern world. So yes, we can make the charge of “sexism” in today’s world. Doing that for ancient cultures only confuses people on what is the issue. And polarizes them needlessly. It is not needed. We can be strongly against “sexism” in our culture without ever dragging into that argument any other culture from the past.
On “misogyny”: unlike “sexism”, this is not limited to just the modern world. Individuals at any time and culture can be “misogynist”.
But that is different from characterizing the entire culture as “misogynist”. Which to me is a very serious charge.
That is where I draw the line with Spencer. No Culture can last long being predominantly “misogynist”! And no great Civilization, like Ancient Greece was, can evolve in History based on such unnatural and destructive attitudes towards women.
Wisdom says so. Knowledge could miss this important truth.
Don’t assume others are insincere. This is hardly the only definition of sexism. In any case, I don’t think that makes it “not sexism”. As for misogyny, Spencer said not everyone held this view, but it was common. Regardless, your assumption no culture could last long while mostly misogynistic is unsupported. Misogyny can and does exist to varying degrees. What wisdom says it couldn’t, or knowledge that wouldn’t? I prefer historical evidence, not your own feelings about what “makes sense”.
Some comments, Michael, can be “sincerely ad hominem”! Those I don’t respond to.
These are issues of great concern and consequence for all of us. Words do not help! Since often these mean different things to different people.
I gave you my meaning of the word “sexism”. What is yours?
My meaning makes “sexism” absolutely wrong. Are other meanings which would make “sexism” relatively right?
And what is its current ’emotive value’ for most people? Regardless of what “sexism” means. Do you see any problems with that? I do.
No one is disputing “misogyny” exists and existed. But characterizing a Culture as “misogynist” is a totally different matter.
When everyone has a mother and many have daughters and sisters and wives, and when half of the people in any culture are women, its hard to imagine how such culture could be based on “misogynist” attitudes and conduct. And last long or evolve to be a Great Civilization.
You believe it can. We can disagree on that. But I think we can agree such characterization is a condamnation.
My definition, which seems standard, would be prejudice or discrimination based on sex and or gender. I don’t know about other definitions, but notice it applies regardless of whether this has to do with a society’s supposed “needs”.
As for cultures, like I said (and Spencer does) no one says the entire culture was this. It’s that such a view was prevalent. Read the quotes he related. They were common, at least in the intellectual elite whose writings still exist.
As for social effects, it is perfectly possible for people to blame many ills upon a group (like women) and like those they known from the same category (for instance their female relatives). Cognitive dissonance is quite common, and often this category “Women” (or Black etc.) is quite divorced from actual people.
To give an example, Hitler himself liked some Jews, but they were exceptions in what his virulent antisemitism said was standard (for him, as I recall a mere two exceptions existed). So with misogyny it often also isn’t against every woman equally. Rather “bad women” (whatever that’s defined as) get the hate (and any violence etc. that entails), others may be designated “good ones”, left alone unless transgressing the misogynist’s standards.
As for societies existing with this, many have. Traditionally for instance many religions have ascribed the “Fall of Man” to the first women, blaming them collectively for this and justifying mistreatment of women on that basis. So there is a hatred of women as a class in that, even if not always every woman individually gets the brunt. Misogyny need not mean virulent hatred either, but covers dislike, contempt and discrimination (see sexism) as well.
Sexism (as defined above) certainly was common and institutionalized in ancient Greece. This is not to single them out-it has been common in many societies, to differing degrees. Obviously, it’s critical for me to say this (or Spencer), since we clearly disagree with these things. However, neither of us condemn them in total.
Like him, I am fond of ancient Greece in many respects, and though I’m not pursuing a degree in the period as he’s doing, it has long been something I’ve read about as just an amateur interested by this. So yes, it is a criticism. Condemnation however implies we dismiss it and discard this as having any value. That is not the case. At least, that’s my view, but from what I’ve seen it’s his as well. Spencer is free to correct me about where we may differ.
I assume by your name you’re Greek, so this article it seems struck a nerve. Please understand however that this isn’t personal-modern Greeks are very different from this era in many ways I’m sure. Neither my ancestors or anyone else’s were perfect or beyond criticism. We can learn from them, both the positive and negative. Obviously, many history scholars and buffs like to simply for pure enjoyment as well.
While this is a long reply as I realize, that’s because it will be my last word. Myself, Spencer and others have been over this repeatedly now. If there is still disagreement between us, it’s going to remain that way I think. Goodbye then-hopefully you understand my view better. This is more complex than I think you realize, with greater nuance.
I, a Great Grandmother of both genders, emphatically disagree with you!
” No Culture can last long being predominantly “misogynist”! And no great Civilization, like Ancient Greece was, can evolve in History based on such unnatural and destructive attitudes towards women.”
The Great Greek, Aristotle, was a TOTAL misogynist!
We have seen all great cultures, Greek, Roman, AMERICAN, exist as Patriarchies that have treated women as property and second class citizens. And, still do.
No amount of Mansplaining will change my mind, as I LIVE in this world!
I would not comment as I have had I not felt strongly against sexism and misogyny!
On that we can both agree! Lets leave it at that. Demonizing people only creates more demons!
I do not judge other people or cultures without having been in their shoes! That’s where experience comes in.
There is simply too much misunderstanding here all around. Most comes from not knowing what we really mean by what we say.
You speak of “discrimination based on sex” as sexism. What does that really mean? Its meaningless unless you also specify “based ONLY on sex”.
How is that then different from “sexism is placing greater value on one person over another (ie “discriminating”) for no other reason than the sex of that person”?
But if there are “other reasons” why one person is valued more than another person of opposite sex, is that still sexism? I say no! While you say yes, I think.
Spencer’s thinking about misogyny in Ancient Greece is more honestly reflected in his comments than in his article. When he says, for example,
“misogyny was a systemic problem of ancient Greek society and that ancient Greek social and cultural norms encouraged it.”
I take issue with that statement.
Spencer, if he was so inclined, could find contrary examples to that. I know he can. His scholarship is impressive. But he chose not to. Perhaps he prefers it that way.
@Saint Kyrillos,
“…my friend’s grandfather has 7 daughters and 18 granddaughters. He’s 95 years old. He agrees with Spencer that the ancient world is sexist”.
Like to talk to your friend’s grandfather! Once we cleared up what we mean by “sexism”, I am confident we’ll find common ground.
You? You can bake in your “sainthood”!